Guest: Dennis Ross. Distinguished fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Formerly a peace negotiator who served under Presidents Bush Sr., Clinton and Obama.
Presenter: Sally Sara.
Producers: Teodora Agarici and Anne Barker.
Sally Sara: The US Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, has condemned the sanctions imposed on two far right ministers in the Israeli government brought by five western allies, including Australia. A joint statement by the allies has accused the two ministers, Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, of repeatedly inciting violence against Palestinians in the West Bank.
But Marco Rubio says the sanctions won’t advance US-led efforts to secure a ceasefire in Gaza, bringing home the remaining Israeli hostages, or to end the war. He says the US stands shoulder to shoulder with Israel and calls for the sanctions to be reversed.
Dennis Ross is a former US diplomat who led the Israeli-Palestinian peace process for 12 years and served in senior political positions under Presidents Bush, Clinton and Obama. He’s now a Distinguished Fellow at the Washington Institute. I spoke to him earlier.
Dennis Ross: Good to be with you. Thank you.
Sally Sara: What do you think about these sanctions, which have been imposed on two far right ministers in Israel by a number of countries, including Australia, the UK, Canada, New Zealand and Norway.
Dennis Ross: I think they’re legitimate. The actions of both ministers Ben-Gvir and Smotrich cross all sorts of lines. Those who argue that they’ll take advantage of these sanctions and play to their base, the reality is, they’ll take advantage of not being sanctioned to say, you see, we can do whatever we want, and there’s never a cost. They are outside, I think, the boundaries of what’s acceptable. They really want to push for the removal of Palestinians.
They want to create a set of realities on the ground that make it impossible ever to have two states. Two states is, certainly, not something that’s possible anytime soon. But the truth is, we want to see a reality where at least that can be preserved as an option at some point. They’re doing everything they can to guarantee it will never happen, and they’re doing it in a way that’s designed to make life increasingly unlivable for Palestinians. So, I think the sanctions on them, not the Israeli government, but on them personally, I think it makes sense.
Sally Sara: These sanctions have been based on accusations that these two ministers have been inciting violence and committing serious abuses of Palestinian human rights, is that a fair assessment in your view?
Dennis Ross: Whether they’re doing it directly or not, they’re certainly doing all they can to protect those who do carry out acts of violence against Palestinians. They always seem to defend them and they’re acting in a way that is obviously designed to try to make life less liveable for Palestinians.
So, I think that is fair. Many of the steps they take are not the deliberate policy of the government, but they reflect what they want.
Sally Sara: The United States has been critical of these sanctions, even though Five Eyes partners, including Australia, the UK, Canada and New Zealand, have been part of it. What do you think about that difference in opinion between those nations and the current position of the United States?
Dennis Ross: Well, I think the last administration, in fact, favoured these kinds of moves, or at least was considering these kinds of moves. I’m not sure they actually ever specifically sanctioned them, but I think they definitely thought about it. This administration, I think, has tried to demonstrate it’s different than the Biden administration. And it probably says that we don’t favour sanctions against members of a government.
But I think, as I said, these two members of this Israeli government don’t feel bound by the government. They feel very much that they can pursue whatever policies they want. And as I said, the notion that it’ll benefit them with their base, it benefits them with their base if you don’t respond to what they do. So, I just don’t think that, given some of the actions they engage in, that this should somehow get a pass.
Sally Sara: What do you think about the fact that these sanctions were based on the minister’s words and actions concerning the West Bank rather than Gaza?
Dennis Ross: I don’t draw a huge distinction from that standpoint. Their words and actions are really not defensible on either. So even if they’re specifically targeted on the West Bank, there’s a value in that, because of a lot of what they’re doing there.
Sally Sara: What do you think about the United States and under the Trump administration’s handling and response to the unfolding, worsening humanitarian crisis in Gaza right now?
Dennis Ross: Well, I think the administration is trying to see some specific steps taken that will alleviate the reality. Look, it’s very clear that Hamas is doing everything it can to frustrate the creation and effectiveness of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Hamas wants to be able to continue to control the humanitarian assistance. They were able to do that with no criticism or boycott by UN agencies. They were able to do that as a way of helping to maintain control within Gaza, and also, they monetized it. They would take it and then resell it, and this would be a source of their funds.
So there had to be an alternative. You can make the case that the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation will have to do better, but it’s also not so easy to do better when a lot of the international aid agencies are boycotting this effort. They’re not doing anything to address what’s happening on the ground right now. Here’s an effort that is being made. The administration supports it. The Israeli government is prepared to continue to do it.
I think it’s very important to address the real needs of people on the ground. It’s really an untenable situation. But international aid agencies could do a whole lot more by helping out in the current situation than by boycotting what’s going on. They offer nothing except a continuation of allowing Hamas to be able to exploit the delivery of humanitarian assistance. That also has to end.
Sally Sara: Is there evidence of widespread theft of aid and control of aid by Hamas in your view?
Dennis Ross: There is, the UN denies it, but then the UN agencies also denied that Hamas had built up tunnels and bases underneath UNRWA headquarters. So, I am highly sceptical of their denials, because they weren’t making any serious effort to ensure that the aid trucks weren’t being looted.
In many cases, I know for a fact that there were payoffs made, like $6,000 per truck, to allow it to go through. So, I mean the fact that the UN agencies are saying there’s no evidence of this, suggests to me that they turned a blind eye to it.
Sally Sara: Given that the levels of hunger in Gaza at the moment, and knowing that the population of Gaza, around half of the population is made up of children, even if there are issues with aid, is the underlying important mission to get the aid through anyway?
Dennis Ross: I think, absolutely, the first priority we ought to be address what is a genuine humanitarian need. And the idea that, in fact, one is going to squabble at this point over who’s most effective in terms of delivering it, or the UN says, look, we won’t be a part of this, because this is weaponizing assistance. How about you just focus on the delivery of the assistance.
Sally Sara: But even if there is disruption and theft by Hamas, should the aid be pushed through anyway?
Dennis Ross: I have a problem with providing aid that allows Hamas to maintain its control, because in maintaining its control, the suffering of Palestinians is guaranteed. There’s a dilemma here, for sure.
But if you’re going to push this through in a way that benefits Hamas, there may be some immediate needs that are addressed, but the longer-term needs, even the intermediate-term needs, of the people there are not being addressed, just the opposite. No one has guaranteed more suffering for Palestinians than Hamas. And Hamas exploits the suffering for their purposes, including to stigmatise the Israelis.
Sally Sara: Dennis Ross will need to leave it there. Thank you for your time this morning on Breakfast.
Dennis Ross: Sure, glad to do it. Bye, bye.
Sally Sara: That’s Dennis Ross there, former US peace negotiator and special Middle East coordinator under Presidents Bush, Clinton and Obama. And last month, the United Nations World Food Programme said there was no evidence that Hamas was stealing food aid in Gaza.